Kaddish, Pagans, Catholics, and Cavemen

I logged on yesterday - very briefly, because we were doing some necessary work - to see if my uncle had sent an update out on my aunt. (He did, and I'll post it later today.) Imagine my surprise to find the following comment attached to my last update:

When anyone prays to the Creator of all things, they are praying to God. So, yes. These prayers are valid in the sense that God hears them and knows they are really talking to Him, even if they cannot see it.

That is one of the stupidest things I've ever read. So you do adhere to pagan prayers. I thought so. Obviously, you seem to forget a little something called the 1st Commandment. I also couldn't help but notice that there wasn't a snide remark from you when I pointed out to you how absurd your notion was concerning Jesus praying the Kaddish. Why would God pray to God for the salvation of souls? You didn't bring that up with over at Tickle-Fight, did you? Nor did you bring up anything else that I had corrected you on, did you?

I can just see the stunned look on your face as you try to reconcile that with your unbelievably weak Catholicism. But you just keep taking your ques from that Episcopalin-Lite buffoon Toni. You know, if you wanted to disagree with me, fine. But you had to make snotty comments towards me personally on someone elses blog? Not that this really bothers me... I'm just suprized. I've even linked you to my blog. If you disagreed with me, I always thought that you would leave it at that.... we'd disagree, period.

Never did I think that you would jump on the "I Hate The Caveman" bandwagon. Are you that weak-minded or have that weak a character? BTW, in case you missed it, I never went to Toni's blog initially and started to toss around the insults... he came to mine. I never initially came to your blog and started tossing around the insults, you saw fit to go to someone elses and do such towards me. But like I said, you aren't the first one, and you certainly won't be the last. At least now I know the caliber person you are. One bit of advice... don't let Toni do your thinking for you. Have a nice day.

And so I will take this opportunity to answer the Catholic Caveman. The biggest reason I do so is because I want Kevin (the Caveman in question) to understand that I am not shirking from this. At the same time, though, comments on this post will close after a day or two. After that, the topic is closed. Period. I will not have this blog hijacked and descend into some angry exchange back and forth over nitpicky things. Up until yesterday, I had never had a problem with rudeness in the com boxes.

First, of all, I did not make a final decision on whether or not to post my comment (in bold) above. Of course, if you were there at Tony's blog (Catholic Pillow Fight), it seems to me that you could have commented there. I actually hadn't read your blog in a very long time, but decided to read the post that Tony pointed out. Lest anyone wonder if I was merely gossipping about you at Tony's blog, they can go and see that I left very specific comments, was quite polite and civil about it, at your blog, as well, and hadn't shrunk from discussing it with you at all. I appreciated that you put up my opposing comments. After the third comment, I had that one phrase pop into my head, but didn't want to merely post that at your blog without further thought on the other things you said. Plus, you can add to this that it was the weekend and I was busy with the usual weekend duties (to which you can add "staining a 1000 sq. ft. deck"). So I didn't craft a response. I'm not one who flies off the handle easily, and I prefer to think out my answers and be sure I'm not saying something I will regret later. Hence, I did not answer you immediately on Friday, the last time I commented. (You can see the comments at the link to the post on Tony's blog for the time I last commented.)

Secondly, to go from "I recognize that God hears the prayers of those who seek Him, even if they don't know His name" to "I pray pagan prayers" is quite the leap, don't you think? You've gone from "I linked to your blog" to "You aren't a real Catholic" in one fell swoop without giving my comment much thought at all.

Do you honestly believe that God checks someone's church membership before He listens to a prayer to the Creator of the Universe? Is He not the Creator? If someone specifically addresses Him, even though the do not realize exactly Whom they address, do you think that God will say, "Nope, not praying through Jesus. Not a Christian. Not a Catholic. Not listening. lalalalalalala." (This is the mental image I get here, mind you.) So in your mind, because I believe what the Church teaches - that there are portions of the Truth to be found in other religions, though incomplete and "defective" (the pope's word) they might be - I am not "Catholic enough" for your liking. Because you don't like that part of what the Church teaches. Much of the world rejects Jesus in part because we do not present Him in a way they can understand. Not everyone has been blessed to be raised Catholic, or even Christian, and the search for God is a tough one if you aren't. The search for the Truth that the Catholic Church holds is difficult, at best, and that, my friend, includes the search that those of us who are Catholic must make. But when someone prays to the Creator of all things, even if they do not pray through Jesus, they are still praying to God. Because that is Who God is. Creator of all things. Understanding that God isn't plugging His ears (metaphor, here, God the Father is not a physical Being) when someone doesn't use the name of Jesus doesn't make me a pagan, or even less Catholic. (Here, the story of the Samaritan woman at the well springs to mind. Jesus did not shun her or dismiss her because she was a Samaritan, but told her that she worshipped that which she did not understand. I see our separated brethren, as well as Jews, in much the same light. They do not have the full revelation of the Truth as contained within the Catholic Church. It doesn't mean that they cannot access God at all, or that they prayers are not heard.)

Now, believing that God listens to people who call on Him - pagan, Jewish, Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, whatever - and adhering to pagan prayers are two very different things. This is quite an accusation you make. Not one I particularly care for, either. I absolutely do NOT adhere to pagan prayers. This is, to be frank, an insult. And a big one, too.

Now, for the part about bringing up whatever else you "corrected" me on: I know that anyone who wants to see what you said has the ability to go and look. Tony did. As a matter of fact, if you read the first few comments at his blog, I actually asked him what he thought of the comments box. Since you banned him there, he can only comment at his own blog. Which he did. Honestly, he's got a right to defend what he said; he's only doing it in the one place he can do so: his own blog. If you want him to fight the battle where your readers can see (since you don't always provide a link to his blog in your posts on him), then un-ban him from the com boxes. Preventing him from commenting there only exacerbates the situation. You have the control to make it easier. But it's a decision you have to make: are you brave enough to debate him on your own turf, or is this all bluster on your part?

Backing up a bit...you asked why God would pray to God for the salvation of souls. Here is the full text of the Kaddish:

"May His great Name grow exalted and sanctified/in the world that He created as He willed./May He give reign to His kingship in your lifetimes and in your days,/and in the lifetimes of the entire Family of Israel,/swiftly and soon. Now say:/(Amen. May His great Name be blessed forever and ever.)/Blessed, praised, glorified, exalted, extolled,/mighty, upraised, and lauded be the Name of the Holy One/Blessed is He./beyond any blessing and song,/praise and consolation that are uttered in the world. Now say:/Amen/May there be abundant peace from Heaven/and life upon us and upon all Israel. Now say:/Amen/He Who makes peace in His heights, may He make peace,/upon us and upon all Israel. Now say:/Amen."

Actually, this prayer asks God for peace, blessings on Israel (remember that Christians are the new Israel, not necessarily just the Jews, to use a general term; in reality, only the tribe of Judah are Jews), and for the reign of His kingship to be soon. This third request is one that we echo in the Lord's Prayer. The rest of the prayer concentrates on glorifying God and praising His holy name. So, yes, I think that there is a good possibility that Jesus, Mary, Joseph, the Apostles, etc. all prayed a Kaddish. The Kaddish might very well have been slightly different in those ancient of days (many prayers do change very slightly), but the basics would still be there. (I make this assumption based on the information that my very good friend and her family gave me. When she got married in a synagogue - bride and groom are both Jewish - I asked how different this ceremony was from one done, say, 2000 or so years ago. Everyone assured me that it was basically the same, with very few changes. This was a wonderful way for my daughter - then 4 - to "see" how Mary and Saint Joseph were married. The whole experience was wonderfully instructive for both of us, and much of what I learned that day has made its way in some fashion into our religious education since then.)

Back to Jesus' prayers. He prayed all the time. To God the Father. The Bible talks frequently about Jesus being in prayer. So we know He prayed. We also know that he prayed in the Temple, that He was an observant Jew (coming from an observant family, you see). Mary, even though she was without sin, even made the offering after Christ's birth. The family participated in the Passover. They made their sacrifices as proscribed by the Law. (The one Jesus did not come to abolish.) They followed the customs, etc. of Judaism. One of the customs is to pray a Kaddish. Could be that it's from Maccabees. Honestly, that's something we could easily look on an apologetics site for.

Here, you leave off any arguments in favor of your opinions at your blog. I'll deal with the personal attacks you've decided to make.

I can just see the stunned look on your face as you try to reconcile that with your unbelievably weak Catholicism. But you just keep taking your ques from that Episcopalin-Lite buffoon Toni. You know, if you wanted to disagree with me, fine. But you had to make snotty comments towards me personally on someone elses blog? Not that this really bothers me... I'm just suprized. I've even linked you to my blog. If you disagreed with me, I always thought that you would leave it at that.... we'd disagree, period.

No stunned look. Well, okay, maybe. But only because I am stunned that you continue to harp on this point. The cardinal requested this prayer. (One of your fellow cavemen said so.) If he himself did this, what position are you in to say it is wrong? He outranks you, to use a crude term. I happen to think that the cardinals (all of them) know better than we do. And this cardinal asked that this prayer be said for him after his death. I think he knew what he was asking, and I would question the judgement of someone who says that the cardinal adheres to pagan prayers because of it.

I will, though, apologize for the "head exploding" part. It was made in jest, but apparently, you did not take it as such. However, I actually had the intention of answering (with that comment) at your blog. You could have discussed the matter right there, and since you weren't commenting at Tony's blog, I made the assumption that you weren't reading all the comments posted there. It was probably an unwise assumption on my part.

In regards to agreeing to disagree, I actually had left it at that. I actually had removed you from my blogroll. I didn't mention why, or mention you specifically, but I was basically removing a lot of blogs that, when I read them, wound up filling me with anger. I don't want to be an angry person. I don't want to be an angry Catholic. I don't want to lose the JOY I have in being a part of the Body of Christ and the Church He founded. But reading some blogs was doing that. Again, until this moment, I did not mention your blog by name in regards to this. But the anger in your posts was running over into mine, and it was stealing the joy I have for the Faith.

Now, if this didn't bother you, then why did you see fit to make the above comment at this post? (If you haven't already done it - and I pray that you didn't before you left that diatribe there - go and read it. Also follow the links. And look for the update that I'll be posting later today.) Seriously, on this point, I would really like an apology. I've been forwarding the links to my aunt and uncle so that they might read any well-wishes people have for them. Imagine if they read the above when they were looking for something to lift their spirits during this difficult time! I've decided to forgive you, by the way, no matter what your reaction. Not because I'm better than you or anyone, but because I know that carrying around anger in my heart like that just eats away at a person. Even over little stuff.

Never did I think that you would jump on the "I Hate The Caveman" bandwagon. Are you that weak-minded or have that weak a character? BTW, in case you missed it, I never went to Toni's blog initially and started to toss around the insults... he came to mine. I never initially came to your blog and started tossing around the insults, you saw fit to go to someone elses and do such towards me. But like I said, you aren't the first one, and you certainly won't be the last. At least now I know the caliber person you are. One bit of advice... don't let Toni do your thinking for you. Have a nice day.

You know what? I wasn't on any bandwagon. I don't hate you. One single post that I commented on (in the two places it was being discussed) where I disagree - and make one stupid comment - and you tear into me like this? I notice you didn't go to Tony's blog initially, but you have the freedom to go and comment there like anyone else. And as far as this sentence:

I never initially came to your blog and started tossing around the insults, you saw fit to go to someone elses and do such towards me.

I made a single comment at Tony's blog; I commented consistently at your blog, as well, and made no secret of my identity or my comments. I wasn't discussing the point here. YOU are the one who brought it here. It wasn't something I felt I had much to contribute to, but one that I was discussing where others commented. But you did come here to toss insults. Here, where I wasn't discussing the topic at all. I did not insult you at all, though I joked about what I thought your reaction might be if I made a particular comment. And though I don't have a justification for my decision to delay responding at your blog at that moment, I must say that your reaction to that one, single comment is more than a bit overblown.

When you judge the caliber of someone, it surprises me that you only want to take into account so little. You said in the beginning of your comment that you linked to me. I can only guess that you read things I'd posted occasionally. And yet when you wish to judge my character, you will take into account only one unguarded comment: not the hundreds of posts I've made here, or the more than 1,000 posts at my other blog. I think that your actions will speak for themselves.

And let's get to that penultimate comment of yours. No one does my thinking for me. I just happened to agree with Tony's point of view on the situation.

And I will certainly try to have a nice day. It took a while after the stress of finding that comment, though. You might want to think about the kinds of things you decide to post on the Lord's Day.

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NOTE TO POTENTIAL COMMENTERS:

Any comments here need to remain civil. Period. I don't care who you agree with more.



Christine